CancerCompass message board discussion started by ohimick on 7/8/2008 http://www.cancercompass.com/message-board/message/all,25834,0.htm Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:00:00 GMT Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:00:00 GMT http://backend.userland.com/rss RSS.NET: http://www.rssdotnet.com/ Sixteen months ago my wife was diagnosed with multiple metastatic brain tumors from an unknown primary cancer.  At the time of her diagnosis, we had been separated but still friendly and partners at business.  The crisis, of course, brought us back together for mutual support and even, for a brief period, there was a thought we'd rekindled the relationship.She had surgery and radiation and today seems very healthy.  If fact, we are now at the point where we were before the the cancer arrived.  I can see that the cancer alone is not enough to save a marriage and am torn as to what to do. If I stay, I will be tempted to wander.  If I leave, I will be considered a low-life for abandoning a wife with cancer.  There is no passion in this marriage, just a polite platonic, business relationship.  Maybe enough for most guys who have been married 30 plus years and are in their early 50's, ready for the rocking chair.  But I am not happy and she is no longer secure in her marrage. This marriage is only being held together by the glue of her crisis, which has apparently settled into remission as there has been no new signs of cancer whatsoever.The prognosis for her disease is wildly varied, from a best of 18 to 24 months, to up to a median of 36 months.  That is a long time to stay in an unhappy house for all the right reasons.  Morally, I stay because...? For better or worse.  If that was the case, then there would be no divorces.  For sicker or poorer...That's my dilemma.  We'll both get sicker if we stay together and I'll be a lot poorer if I leave!!!I  just finished reading a book called "Love Life" about a husband whose wife had breast cancer and how he coped.  He did it in a very unique and exciting way...but not very respectfully.Responses? ohimick Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT I'm curious, would disolving the marriage, disolve the relationship, or would it just change it?  How long were you married?  Do you have children together?   I know that this is getting personal, but you asked.... Runabout Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT  On 7/8/2008 ohimick wrote:Sixteen months ago my wife was diagnosed with multiple metastatic brain tumors from an unknown primary cancer.  At the time of her diagnosis, we had been separated but still friendly and partners at business.  The crisis, of course, brought us back together for mutual support and even, for a brief period, there was a thought we'd rekindled the relationship.She had surgery and radiation and today seems very healthy.  If fact, we are now at the point where we were before the the cancer arrived.  I can see that the cancer alone is not enough to save a marriage and am torn as to what to do. If I stay, I will be tempted to wander.  If I leave, I will be considered a low-life for abandoning a wife with cancer.  There is no passion in this marriage, just a polite platonic, business relationship.  Maybe enough for most guys who have been married 30 plus years and are in their early 50's, ready for the rocking chair.  But I am not happy and she is no longer secure in her marrage. This marriage is only being held together by the glue of her crisis, which has apparently settled into remission as there has been no new signs of cancer whatsoever.The prognosis for her disease is wildly varied, from a best of 18 to 24 months, to up to a median of 36 months.  That is a long time to stay in an unhappy house for all the right reasons.  Morally, I stay because...? For better or worse.  If that was the case, then there would be no divorces.  For sicker or poorer...That's my dilemma.  We'll both get sicker if we stay together and I'll be a lot poorer if I leave!!!I  just finished reading a book called "Love Life" about a husband whose wife had breast cancer and how he coped.  He did it in a very unique and exciting way...but not very respectfully.Responses?After reading your message, I would say your wife is better off without you but she may not realize that.  You said she seems very healthy today but you later gave a very poor prognosis (one doesn't equate to the other).  You apparently don't have the right concept of what marriage is about - the promise is through sickness and health - til death do you part.  No where do the vows say until the passion is gone.  If she were healthy I might feel differently because she deserves to have someone who loves and cares for her.  As for what you said about married men in platonic relationships who have been married 30 years and in their early 50s - there are bums that fit that criteria also.  36 months may seem like a long time to you but to someone who is terminally ill, it is by far too short of a time.  Only you can answer the question - whether you should leave or stay.  You are the one that has to look at yourself in the mirror for the rest of your life knowing if you deserted a wife w/ cancer.  Just because you are tempted to wander doesn't mean you have to wander.  One day at some point in the future, when you do meet a wonderful woman that you want to spend the rest of your life with (make sure she is your best friend before asking her to marry you - harder to leave a best friend), do you want her to look at you as a man who deserted his wife with cancer or do you want to be a man who stayed by her side?  Better yet, will that woman want a man who deserted a wife during her illness.  You didn't say if you have children together or if she has children from a previous relationship but this could get very muddy in court.  If you have children together, one day these children would realize what you had deserted their mother.  Keep in mind, judges tend to be older conservative men who would frown heavily (rightfully so) on a man who deserts a sick wife (no matter how healthy YOU think she looks).  It's your decision - do you behave like a bum and leave or do you stand beside your wife like a man everyone will respect.  My own husband was used to being taken care of before my diagnosis but after I was diagnosed w/ cancer he came through for me - and everyone (family and friends) tell me how fortunate I was to have him - and I know it.  As I read your message, I think you know the moral thing to do but you're hoping someone on this site will tell you that it is okay to leave.  You may find some who will tell you that but it doesn't necessarily make it true.  Dlynn1210 Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT I knew the risk of posting this would be to paint myself a villian.  And, honestly, that is not what I want to be.  I am interested in all replies because this is a moral dilemma.First of all, the 3 children are all grown and out of the house.  We have 3 grandchildren by one daughter and her husband.  My wife loves the grandchildren more than any grandmother I have ever known.  And it is expected because the grandchildren love unconditionally, always.If there was a divorce, everything would go 50-50:  she would get the house and the little RV, and half the stock in the business.  I would probably get the rental house and office and my half of the business.  Although in time we would be friendly, this divorce would not be amicable from the get-go.  There is too much underlying anger here.  Remember, this relationship began to crumble long before the cancer appeared.  It was held together by the children.  When they left home, there was really no more reason to stay married.  People do change and people do get divorces.  There have been no affairs, no domestic violence.  Just two angry people who have big differences on how they vision the rest of their lives.We are in marriage counseling but it only seems to bring out more anger.  I have told her I love her, but unfortunately, like a business partner.  But like a business partner, I would always be there to help and suppport her when needed.  But, I am not romantically in love with her.Her prognosis is good.  There is no sign of cancer.  If the median survival for people with her disease is 36 months, then the chances for her to live 5 to 10 more years is excellent.  None of us have that guarantee.  I agree with the responder who said she deserves to be with someone who loves her.  She has a lot of love to give for a long time to come. If I hated her, if I couldn't stand her, this would be an easy decision.  But I don't.  But we are not happy together anymore.  And it's even harder knowing she would stay forever with me if the roles were reversed.  She is a martyr like that and, because like many of you, she believes in the vows, especially "in sickness and in health".Still sitting on the fence.  ohimick Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT Dlynn,Very well said.  I have cancer and I couldn't imagine my husband leaving me because of it.  He has tried everything he can to make my life easier and more bearable.  I was given 6-12 months and that was almost 2 years ago.  He's still here and still taking care of me.  Whatever our differences were in the past, they didn't disappear, but he was man enough to know what counts when the chips are down.  Chessie Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT I've read your letter(s) several times and my initial reaction is anger at what appears to be your selfishness.  I was dx with Stg4 nsclc in 4/05, and couples who had been fighting longer than us said that alot of couples can't handle the stress and get divorced - since then my husband has been strong, loving, concerned and willing to grow/change with me.  I need to see communication from someone such as yourself to be reminded of how blessed I really am.  My hubby and I also have problems ( after 26 yrs. of marriage, who doesn't? ), but we have both given to each other and taken what the other can give through these years of treatment.  As a result of that, our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. So, that said - perhaps your wife should be talking to someone about how much more she deserves and how having had cancer won't prevent her from being truly happy in the future.And I echo the comments of a previous writer - what kind of woman would want a relationship with a man who ran out on his wife when she was sick....I wish both of the best! Bentley Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT Everyone has a right to either work at a unhappy marriage, or leave it. What I don't understand today is why everyone thinks marriage is to be a smooth ride 24/7. I will put my two cents in. I was married to a wonderful man for 23 years. Yes we had are ups and downs, our fights over money, raising children, who is suppose to do what chore, mad at each other at times, questioned if we were suppose to be together. Doesn't every married couple go thru this. No where is it written marriage is a everyday wonderful experience. Isn't living life everyday the same? We choose to marry each other for better or for worse. Yes there are some marriages that should not be held together when domestic volience comes in to play, abuse, mental or physical. But when two people who have come so far to raise their children, have grandchildren to enjoy, have their health, boy that is worth a million. I wish I could have my husband back with us, what I would do for that. I lost him August 4th, 2007. Would I have done things differently if I would have known we were going to lose him so early. Yes, I would not have been so nuts with cleaning, so involved with my job, and would have spent every minute I could with him. (I was home with him for the last 5 months).People just keep saying they are not happy in their relationship. Is it they are not happy with themselves and blame it on their marriage. I would just enjoy having him with us to watch TV, have dinner together, go for a walk, the simply things in life we take for granted. I have seen people leave their marriage thinking it would be better and they are misable. Not all, but most of them and the biggest complaint is they feel they are being taken for everything. Oh well, its too late to turn back.   Wilmabc Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT Thanks to all of you for responding.  I definitely touched a nerve with some of you.  Yes, leaving your spouse because they have cancer and cannot cope with the change is morally indefensible.   What may make this situation a bit different is that we were separated before the cancer and reconciled because of the cancer and the absolute need to be there for her when she needed me.  If she was compromised by the therapies, or having any symptoms or recurrence, there wouldn't be any doubt to what to do.The moral answer is obvious.  I know and you have all made it very clear as to what the right thing to do is.  Divorce should never be the first option. We have worked to rebuild this marriage for a good time  But when 2 rocks no longer roll, they are simply stuck.  But if cancer was not involved, would you still carry the burden of choosing to be less than optimally happy just to honor the wedding vows?  Would you all choose to be stuck if that is how you felt?  Just thinking out loud, teetering on the top of the fence.  The view is OK from here so I'm not going anywhere real soon.  For better or for worse, in sickness and in health, this is the right place to be for now.   ohimick Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT  On 7/9/2008 ohimick wrote:Thanks to all of you for responding.  I definitely touched a nerve with some of you.  Yes, leaving your spouse because they have cancer and cannot cope with the change is morally indefensible.   What may make this situation a bit different is that we were separated before the cancer and reconciled because of the cancer and the absolute need to be there for her when she needed me.  If she was compromised by the therapies, or having any symptoms or recurrence, there wouldn't be any doubt to what to do.The moral answer is obvious.  I know and you have all made it very clear as to what the right thing to do is.  Divorce should never be the first option. We have worked to rebuild this marriage for a good time  But when 2 rocks no longer roll, they are simply stuck.  But if cancer was not involved, would you still carry the burden of choosing to be less than optimally happy just to honor the wedding vows?  Would you all choose to be stuck if that is how you felt?  Just thinking out loud, teetering on the top of the fence.  The view is OK from here so I'm not going anywhere real soon.  For better or for worse, in sickness and in health, this is the right place to be for now.  When I wrote my earlier message to you, I understood that you were talking about leaving your wife WHILE she had cancer - not because she had cancer.  You now ask if cancer were not involved would we still feel the same about your staying in the marriage.  I can't speak for others but I might feel differently if you could honestly say - my wife is healthy and my grown children understand that their mother and I are unhappy together and would be better off apart.  I say might because I don't know what your marriage is like - I still strongly believe that a good marriage takes work.  As responsible adults we realize that life is not all about me - me - me!  We have to take others into consideration before making decisions that will affect many lives.  It's not how YOU feel about being in a marriage that lacks passion but how your wife feels and how your children will feel if you leave her.  NOW add cancer into the scenario.  For all of us facing cancer, stress is one of our worst enemies.  What do you think the stress of a divorce would do to your wife?   It sounds as if you may be in denial about your wife's health because it would give you a clean conscience if you decide to leave her.  You said "If the median survival for people with her disease is 36 months, then the chances for her to live 5 to 10 more years is excellent."  Are you saying that a doctor told you that the median survival for your wife is only 36 mo but there is an excellent chance for survival for 5-10 years?  I know I was told my type of cancer has a high reoccurrence rate for the first two years and then slows down some for the next three years, then (after 5 yrs) my chance for long term survival increases. Caregivers play a vital role for someone facing cancer.  As I said in my earlier message, I was fortunate to have a husband who stepped up to the plate when needed.  To give you a little background on myself - I was pregnant w/ my 5th child when my first husband decided he wanted the single life and walked out on us (my oldest was 7).  I met my second husband when my youngest was 7 months old and we were married when she was 3 (God bless him - most men ran the opposite direction when I said I had 5 kids).  Sadly, we lost him to lung cancer 3 weeks after our youngest turned 18.  I had only known my current husband 4 years when I was diagnosed w/ cancer (so we didn't have longevity in our favor) and we didn't share raising children together because all of our children were grown.  My middle daughter had been in a very bad marriage for 12 years with all of her siblings and I trying to get her to leave him.  One sister in Atlanta had repeatedly told her - come live with me rent free as I have a huge house.  I won't go into details but this was an extremely bad marriage that she kept trying to make work.  Nothing any of us said convinced her to leave him.  My treatment ended in late Oct and I got a clean scan late Dec.  Shortly afterward, my daughter made a comment to me that she had been thinking throughout my treatment that her husband wouldn't have been there supporting her like Ed was for me.  A couple of months ago she asked him to leave their home and last week she packed up a 17' U-Haul and she and my 5 yr old granddaughter moved from TN to Atlanta.  Children - even grown children - learn by watching us.  Ed's actions spoke much louder than all of our words over 12 years had accomplished.  What message would you be sending to your daughters if you left their mother?  Even more, how would they feel if your wife had a reoccurrence in 6 months or so after you left her - possibly attributed to the stress a divorce would put her through.  Only you can answer whether it is worth losing everything you will lose if you leave - and I don't mean at the very least one half of everything you own.  You will lose the respect of many - possibly your own children.  Also, don't bet on that down the line your wife and you would once again have a friendly relationship.  It might have been the case when you separated the first time but leaving her when she is ill is a different circumstance.  One final thought - I am a strong believer in karma - as my grandmother used to say "what goes around comes around - good and bad."                  Dlynn1210 Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT  On 7/8/2008 ohimick wrote:Sixteen months ago my wife was diagnosed with multiple metastatic brain tumors from an unknown primary cancer.  At the time of her diagnosis, we had been separated but still friendly and partners at business.  The crisis, of course, brought us back together for mutual support and even, for a brief period, there was a thought we'd rekindled the relationship.She had surgery and radiation and today seems very healthy.  If fact, we are now at the point where we were before the the cancer arrived.  I can see that the cancer alone is not enough to save a marriage and am torn as to what to do. If I stay, I will be tempted to wander.  If I leave, I will be considered a low-life for abandoning a wife with cancer.  There is no passion in this marriage, just a polite platonic, business relationship.  Maybe enough for most guys who have been married 30 plus years and are in their early 50's, ready for the rocking chair.  But I am not happy and she is no longer secure in her marrage. This marriage is only being held together by the glue of her crisis, which has apparently settled into remission as there has been no new signs of cancer whatsoever.The prognosis for her disease is wildly varied, from a best of 18 to 24 months, to up to a median of 36 months.  That is a long time to stay in an unhappy house for all the right reasons.  Morally, I stay because...? For better or worse.  If that was the case, then there would be no divorces.  For sicker or poorer...That's my dilemma.  We'll both get sicker if we stay together and I'll be a lot poorer if I leave!!!I  just finished reading a book called "Love Life" about a husband whose wife had breast cancer and how he coped.  He did it in a very unique and exciting way...but not very respectfully.Responses?Whatever you decide to do is up to you, your wife and God.  Have you tried counseling?  Have you talked with a member of your clergy?  How does your wife feel?  How would you want her to act toward you if you were the one with cancer?  Yeah, in sickness and in health not much fun.  We don't go out anymore, we don't have sex (going on over 2 years now), but I love him today as much as I did the day I married him.  I would not want to be in your shoes for all the money in the world.  Why worry about what others think of you?  It sounds like you already think of yourself as a "not so nice person".  You sound very self centered and I pity you.  I would love to hear your wife's side of this story.Oh, and by the way, MOST 50 year olds are NOT ready for the rocking chair and could probably run circles around young wannabe's.Loving someone truly is not all about just lust and having a good time.  True love is about EVERYTHING married life has to offer.  Sure, you could go find yourself some young bimbo and then what if she gets sick?  They get sick to you know.   When you constantly chase after something that's not there, you'll never be happy.  It sounds like the problem is with YOU.  Take a good long look in the mirror. My best to you, and All the the best to your wife. chef4u Sun, 27 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT Again, thanks for the responses.  I have rarely read such anger.  I don't think I said my marriage was sexless, just without passion.  And if two people didn't like each other before there was cancer, why would cancer change that?  Yes, when she is sick and in need, I was there not only because it was the right thing to do but even now, I still love for her-I am just not in love with her, nor is she happy with me being there just because she has cancer.  Am I self-centered. Yes, I am.  But I am still there.  We have gotten past most of the anger for now and are discussing divorce realistically and like adults.  But nothing has been decided.  We are friends who probably will become bitter ememies before we can reconcile as friends again.  Don't you think she deserves to be with someone who will be able to lovingly give her what she needs?  I do.  OVluvsher Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:00:00 GMT Just a suggestion, maybe you should be asking your wife these questions...she may a have a very strong opinion. Being friends, very good friends may not be such a bad thing. A good friend is better than a angry spouse. I dont know how the communication is between you but at least give her the respect to discuss your feelings with her. She may surprise you.Best of luck to you bothSsndy WOLFLADY1020 Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:00:00 GMT Wow, I don't want to beat you up over your marriage. It sounds like the passion left a long time ago but the friendship remained. If you were truly her best friend you can see the pain in her eyes and her heart. Your wife should not have to deal with a divorce right now she has enough pain just dealing with her cancer. She may look fine, act fine but truly believe me she's not fine. Cancer changes you in ways you'll never know unles you are the person with cancer. She may not express it to you because perhaps she can't. I am sure she is afraid of never seeing her children again weather they are grown or not and watching that precious little grandchild grow up and future grandchildren she may never see. Passion isn't everything. I have been married 26 years and the passion has not always been there but I love and respect my husband. I consider his feelings and how my cancer must make him feel. He is the type of person if he sees something broken he fixes it, well he can't fix my cancer and that has caused him quite pain. he has been my rock and I don't know if I could face every day if he wasn't by my side. I thought about divorce in the past just like you because of passion. You have to find ways to be creative when you've been married as long as we have. Your not 25 anymore, yeah the passion sometimes isn't as strong as when you were first married but did you know sex can be better at 50 than 25. Passion is something earned so maybe you haven't earned the right to have any passion with this woman. She sounds very passionate with her children and her grandchild why not with you. I know you said you've tried therapy and you only get angry with each other. This may not be the right therapist for the two of you. Try a different therapist that deals not only in marriage but illness. Our therapist has taught us that mutual respect will bring the passion back. Respect is earned and if she doesn't respect you anymore how can she be passionate with you. I had temporarily lost respect for myself and my husband before I had cancer. Why? I'm not sure but I had to learn to love myself again and when I started loving myself again I saw my husband differently . I never stopped loving him I just didn't have that fire when we first met. I've learned a lot about myself I didn't know . I am strong person, strong personality, always had to be right , never took no for an answer. Well I was wrong, I am now treating myself with more repect, learning I don't always have to have the last word and giving my husband a chance to truly love me for me all my insecurities, faults and also all the good. I have so much to give to this relationship, love, respect, time to truly listen to his feelings . Do you seat down and truly have an indebt conversation with her anymore? I know you said divorces happens every day and they do sad but they do. Most marriages can be saved and sadly people don't realize it until it is too late. I hope you can realize how important this woman is to you and not decide to leave her when she has so much to deal with right now. It is true if she dies now or soon because of the added stress your children and grandchildren would never forgive you and is it worth losing them too. I don't mean to offend you but please get help and don't leave when these may be her last days. It is true we all have no guantees for tomorrow and you could die before she does but her days could be numbered right now you don't know. You may go wake her up in the morning and she passed in her sleep. Keep the family calm right now , keep her calm , let her know you love her, passion isn't everything. People in pain the last thing they want is to have worry about being romantic. What was the last romantic thing you did for her? I know me changing my attitude about passion in our relationship made a big difference in how my husband saw me. I try to go out of my way like something simple as a love letter, or a rose on his pillow or just a grin and laugh and he knows I still love him makes a big difference. I read a lot of Dr Laura books, don't know if you are a reader but try them she has a lot of advice. Don't beat yourself up so much allow yourself to truly love her again. The answer is not divorce and who cares if you get half of everything who gets half her heart when you leave her because right now you have half and she has the other. Super01Mom Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:00:00 GMT Here goes.  My opinion and my opinion only.  I don't think I see this as abandoning a wife with cancer.  You are leaving an unhappy marriage.  One that you had apparently already left at an earlier point in time.  You don't say how "your wife" feels about this.  Maybe she doesn't want to be with you any more than you want to be with her.  Surely she is aware of the lack of love and passion.  I personally would not want someone staying because of a misguided sense of guilt or responsibility.  You need to talk with her about this rationally and come to a decision that works for both of you.  Neither of you is in this alone.  Stop worrying about what other people think.  Some will think you're a prince, others will think you're a cad!  There are only two people here whose opinion is really valid - you and your wife. Lorre G Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:00:00 GMT Thanks to all of you.  We have tried on several occasions to have an in depth conversation, and we are actually getting better at it, that is we can mention divorce, mention the saddness and even how it will affect the entire family.....for  a while and then something personal usually comes up and there goes the conversation until next time.And we date.  Like tonight we will go out to dinner, maybe go to a lounge where some band is playing.  We will be friends for an evening. And for an evening, she will forget that she still lives three months at a time.  That is the best I can do for now.  And everything you say about being there, staying in the marriage for her health and rekindle the love, it is such good advice, truly.  But maybe not for me.  Or her.  She will know if I am there only to ease my own guilt.I will do my darnest to make sure there is a support system in place before, if I decide to leave.  We have kids and grandkids nearby and I have convinced her to go back to yoga and her friends there.  She needs someone to talk to about her fears, someone who has been there but she refuses to go to cancer support groups.  "Why should I when I should be able to talk to my husband about it??"  And I feel low....  Again, thanks for the input.  Sometimes it is nice to talk about something other than cancer for a change! OVluvsher Fri, 15 Aug 2008 00:00:00 GMT   I felt like I had to answer this post because my situation is similar to yours. I divorced my alcoholic husband in 1997 and somehow found myself back with him in 2001. Nothing had really changed, I guess I just wanted it to so badly that I convinced myself that he had changed. The last few years I tried to break it off again. I asked him to leave. He refused. I could have just thrown him out I guess, but it was easier to just avoid him as much as possible. Anyway, last March he was diagnosed with stage 3 lymphoma & stage 4 colon cancer.  The upshot is that I remarried him and have been taking care of him ever since. I know I sound like a martyr and maybe I am, but I couldn't let him die alone. The interesting thing is that once I made the decision to stick by him, all of my previous anger and resentment just went away. I try hard not to judge others so I am not going to lecture you about your marriage vows. You do not sound like a cold, uncaring person. You just sound trapped. I used to feel that way so I can relate. At any rate, I would advise you to be emotionally supportive of your wife even if you two do divorce. You have history together and I think you know in your heart that you cannot just abandon her. Good luck. sharon1946 Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:00:00 GMT