Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

5080 Posts | Page(s): Prev 12...495 496 497 498 499 ...507508 Next 

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Jan 16, 2019 01:27 AM

Quote | Reply

JohnnyP,

When reviewing those early posts I cringe. I was posting through so many discussions without carefully considering the high level knowledge that was being demonstrated. The take away message is when life is confusing, it is very important to listen to those who have greater insight. I still  need to work on this skill.

My information on HowardA was that the chicken salinomycin caused him to have a substantially bad reaction. Salinomycin is extremely dangerous when trying to updose, even for those who have high technical competence in treatment.

My initial interpretation that it was not caused by the 3-BP  was confirmed. Someone with his level of understanding       (and truthfully desperation), I anticipated, would be able to properly manage 3-BP.

Yet, at the time of his postings I was quite confused by what his posts meant. I was biased towards rating the competency and knowledge base of posters to the thread based on their proper punctuation, grammar and spelling.

By this measure, HowardA might have close to the lowest rank of those to our thread, while in terms of actual treatment competence he is clearly near the top or at the top. He was Years ahead of everyone else! He achieved a medium term response with 3-BP and other treatments that the rest of us are only now starting to understand.

Even still his posted dosings give me a great deal of concern, as they did at the time. My best current understanding of his idiosyncratic use of language in his posts is that he was giving everyone fair warning that 3-BP can be quite dangerous, and for those thinking of doing this lacking any familiarity with chemistry it would be best to stay with the professionals.

Some of those early thread posts had nuggets of wisdom that I am glad were brought back into memory. An important point of note was that it appears that the second patient report with the melanoma patient also showed signs of TLS. I greatly hope that this is discussed more honestly. The first 3-BP published patient had a nearly fatal TLS episode, apparently the second patient might have had a fatal TLS reponse, and it is now no longer byond imagination that the Bracht fatalities were also TLS. It needs to be understood that 3-BP can be an extremely powerful anti-cancer treatment and appropriate medical intervention will be provided for those who might develop TLS (though of course it would be best to avoid this if possible). Unfortunately, published literature on this specific question are still absent from pubmed.

   

 

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Jan 16, 2019 04:18 AM

Quote | Reply

JohnnyP, I want to bring to your attention an overview diagram for the metabolism pathways. The metro map on the page below integrates the research efforts of many thousands of scientists likely over at least the last few centuries.

This is to a very large extent what our thread has been discussing over all of these years. Now we can finally see a top level view. Clearly the complexity shown in the figure represents an enormous challenge to overcome. 

This represents a near complete depiction of how cancer cells maintain the critical processes needed for their survival. As can be seen on this diagram, ketogenesis is a side chain of the main line of cancer.  Starting from the top and going down (near the middle), the prominent role of glycolysis can be seen. Manipulating this path would obviously have a large influence on the entire network.

Probably best to think of this more as having a metabolic control rheostatic for the different pathways. You have now acquired a good amount of control over ketogenesis. Ketogenesis/ketosis has clearly shown activity in animals models of cancer. Human clinical evidence is also emerging. Combining this with glucose control is a strong next move.

One idea that might also leverage ketosis is attempting to limit the substrates for gluconeogenesis. The diagram shows a fair number of these (the lines in dark blue called feeders to gluconeogenesis). The intention of this is for lactate to be removed from the system through gluconeogenesis. Lactate levels in cancer patients often are elevated and this causes a wide range of problems. One problem with this might be that it could lead to higher glucose levels, though additional strategies could then be imagined to counter this problem. Fortunately, one can monitor glucose and lactate levels. 

Nearly all of the circles in the diagram represnt control nodes that might be adjustable. A coordinated approach to stress the entire system could have a very large effect on cancer cell viability. We have gained awareness over the past few years of chemicals that have selectivity for cancer cells, so this has plausibility for clinical translation.

The external links to this page has an even more elaborate visual depiction of the details of all of these pathways (and more). Tracing through these pathways to find how increasing or decreasing certain chemicals would change key energy chemicals such as ATP, NADH, FADH2, NADPH etc. could have considerable clinical relevance. This digram clearly shows the massive level of network redundancy in cancer cell wiring. Yet, we can still start off with simple and intuitive first steps and build from there.

I would encourage you to give this some deliberation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_pathway

       

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JohnnyP on Wed Jan 16, 2019 03:09 PM

Quote | Reply

J:

I don't know if you've seen this paper on Salinomycin.  It looks very interesting:

journals.sagepub.com /doi/pdf/10.1177/1010428317695035

Howard's last post stated stairs were a nonstarter for him.

A quote from Page 8 on human toxicity:

"Shortness of breath, dizziness, nausea, leg weakness, photophobia, and increased blood pressure are the symptoms of salinomycin toxicity in humans."

*

I sent a youtube link and a paper on Metformin to my contact inside our cancer clinic, to forward to our oncologist and the research staff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF_ldsxfx1Q

The paper on the ongoing (twelve year) clinical trial:

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01101438

*

I just watched a youtube "Is it possible to reverse aging?"

It just happened to mention metformin.  But the really interesting part I have queued up here, showed a 35% reduction in white blood cells during a five day fast, using Longo's FMD chow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Whz431eJVI&t=24m17s

Shirley's white blood cell count is low.  She doesn't eat much (but that is improving), so this could be a big part of the reason.

Which is more important, higher glucose/ketone ratio to stress the cancer, vs higher white blood cell count?  A balancing act, to be sure.

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Thu Jan 17, 2019 03:02 AM

Quote | Reply

JohnnyP,

I will try to listen more to others, it will be difficult, though I'll give it a try. In this spirit, I will review your previous comments that I left unanswered.

- Your post about high glucose levels is important. Ketone production is one positive step, though the next part of the plan is to move to lower glucose levels. Lowering glucose should not be that tough; reducing caloric intake and some light exercise (if these interventions are considered medically applicable in this specific instance) would achieve the desired outcome.

Gaining understanding of metabolic states has large relevance in cancer management. There are several variables that can be manipulated, so it will take some to try them out and see what happens. For instance, there are a few variants of ketogenic diets to choose from, there is the idea of pulsing ketosis (deliberately moving in and out of ketosis, with the hope that this would stress cancer cells), and others. Becoming an expert in these different approaches would allow you to increase the anti-cancer effects. 

It is also important to recognize the role of gluconeogenesis. Once glucose is not provided to the body through carbohydrates, the body makes its own through gluconeogenesis. Surprisingly, carbohydrates are non-essential. This then becomes another node in the network that one could manipulate. What might happen to lactate levels (which are often elevated in cancer and when elevated actively participate in the process of metastasis) if the lactate was fed through gluconeogenesis to produce glucose? How low could one move lactate levels into the lower end of normal?  

So your wife's highish glucose levels could also be related to the gluconeogenesis that might be occuring. There is some confusion online though about this specific question.

Have you both had HbA1c tests?


RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JohnnyP on Thu Jan 17, 2019 04:15 PM

Quote | Reply

J:

Our Primary Care Physicians have let us both down.  They have never requested A1C or fasting insulin tests and we are both in our 70's.

I had a physical last April and my fasting blood glucose was 117.  Nothing was said except that it's a little high.  I went online and was surprised to learn I was well on my way to diabetes, so I ordered a Keto-Mojo meter and test strips from Amazon.

After seven months of keto, I scheduled a follow up blood test, this time requesting A1C and fasting insulin.  A1C measured 5.5, insulin was 11.7.

I've lost 35 pounds in the process and all other blood markers are excellent.  The Dr. is nonplussed and wants to see me again in March.  I'm sure he thinks it's just a fluke.

So, I've got diabetes under control with no medication, but I'm not cured.  If I have three or four chocolate chip cookies, my glucose reading spikes to 200, taking a day to return to normal levels.  So that's a very rare treat for me.

Shirley has been under the care of an oncologist since April, and has not had an A1C or fasting insulin test, but I measure her blood nearly every day.  Glucose is usually in the 90's, ketones are usually above 2.0.  Both could be better but I take what I can get.  We both did a three day fast last May, her glucose dipped into the low 70's, ketones reached 3.8, IIRC.

Lowering glucose was the reason I was interested in Metformin and Berberine.  I watched (I think it was) Mercola interviewing Seyfried a while back.  He started to mention using Metformin to lower glucose.  Seyfried cut him off like a shot, saying "Oh, we have much better things we can use than Metformin."

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Fri Jan 18, 2019 04:08 AM

Quote | Reply

JohnnyP, I am sorry to hear your perception of the care received from your physicians. This is unexpected as we live in such a virtual and superintensive Artificial Intelligence world now that one might expect that competitive forces would emerge to counteract patient/consumer dissatisfaction. There have been transformative changes in almost all areas of our lives that have put consumer satisfaction and choice as the central mantra of those companies that have thrived in this environment. I am very surprised how attentive most organizations now are to provide me with the goods and services that I, as a customer, want under terms and conditions that I find acceptable.

I am in great anticipation to learn how a superintelligent computer will rank 3-BP as an anti-cancer treatment.

This is great news that you have informed yourself about glucose and ketone levels and have taken action. Comorbidities can certainly complicate treatment planning.

I am especially interested in the knowledge base that you have acquired from your wife's glucose and ketone readings. The ketosis approach certainly has a growing database of confirming evidence, though sometimes the claims made for it are not overly enthusiastic.

I have recently visited a pet cancer site and was interested to see what treatments they felt were the best for dog, cat, etc. cancers. What was actually quite remarkable was that many of these sites appear to offer many of the same alternative/integrative treatments that are often derided elsewhere.

6 million dogs in America are diagnosed with cancer every year. I would not think that the FDA would have authority to regulate the treatment of these animals. This would imply that more rigorous and probably aggressive treatments could be provided to the animals.

On one of these sites I found a dog sanctuary that is reporting a considerable success with a metabolic protocol. In their protocol which was developed from the human theory and with modifications from responses from dogs they arrived at a plan including: ketogenic diet (designed to lower glucose), FDG imaging, metabolic conditioning, HBOt etc along with other more conventional treatments.

The site stresses that ketosis requires both elevated ketones and moderately low glucose levels (glucose reading for dogs suggested was <= 75 mg/dL). They likely have a great deal better conception of the effect of ketosis on cancer than most of the human experts because human patients do not always comply with treatments etc. In a dog sanctuary you could manipulate variables almost at the level of precision of a laboratory. At the sanctuary they measure glucose levels on a daily basis to ensure that ketosis is being maintained. I certainly wondered whether they might add in some 3-BP to the treatment plan. Are pets now receiving better cancer care than people?

A quote that particularly caught my attention was that they consider lowering glucose to be much easier than raising ketones (however, this might be a specific feature to dog biology). My initial interpretation of this statement was that caloric restriction and exercise can be highly effective in lowering glucose.     

I am interested in what metabolic alterations that you might be interested in making (if you thought this of value). Careful and gradual manipulation of the metabolic cancer network with the intent of observing changes in the netowrk state certainly has potential, yet admittedly this would be somewhat off road. One manipulation that I have mentioned is the possibility of lowering lactate levels. I noticed that you have a glucose and ketone monitor but not a lactate monitor. Perhaps you could ask your doctors if they felt this would be helpful.

With this new style of interaction of listening more, I have accumulated a large backlog of items on my to post list! To fit them in I'll just move to point form.

- Catalase catalyzes the reaction H2O2--> H2O + O2            Cancer cells are typically highly deficitent in catalase. Vitamin C treatment produces hydrogen peroxide above and is then converted to water and oxygen, while the cancer cells retain hydrogen peroxide. Since platins are often used in cancer treatment and platinum also catalyzes the above reaction it had me wondering whether vitamin C and platins could convert hydrogen peroxide to O2 in cancer cells. This would be a very clean reaction that produced oxygen and might have useful anti-cancer properties.

-Recently I bought a waterflosser and it has been great! I  had no understanding why the altenative clinics focused so much on dental and oral health (this seems highly tangential to cancer therapy), though as usual it appears that they were onto something. I have felt so much better after starting to use one of these devices. Cleaning out all the food debris from the gum line has noticeably improve my dental and mental health. Go online and read the nearly unanimous praise for these products. This has to be worth $50.

-One article that recently captivated my attention showed fasting glucose levels for up to 5 years before the diagnosis of pancreatic cancer versus controls. This was almost too muc to believe! A figure shows how there is a quadratically increasing difference between these 2 groups that exhibits clear separation 3 YEARS before the diagnosis of pancreatic cancer. The so-called Sojourn time. I find this almost impossble to understand. By the time of diagnosis the patients are 6 months past an unreavealed diagnosis of diabetes and would then present due to the progression of overt symptoms. The only question for me is how far back from this Sorjourn time could you detect pancreatic cancer? From what I can see it might be possible to move this back another 6-8 months. My thinking is that one could potentially apply a (smallish?) dose of 3-BP, to those who appeared to have an unexplained trend upward in their fasting glucose levels. When the tumor was large enough and acidic enough, a dose of 3-BP could knock down this early stage tumor. If you then saw a decrease in the FBG, it would add plausibility to the existence of an early cancer.   

Best Wishes.       

 

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JohnnyP on Fri Jan 18, 2019 07:58 PM

Quote | Reply

I had gum disease before going low carb.  They would bleed when brushing my teeth and flossing, using tooth picks, etc.  Prescription mouth wash from my dentist helped a little.

I watched Jordan Peterson talking about going keto, then full carnivore.  He said one of the things that happened is his gum disease is gone.  I realized mine was, too.  I can't make them bleed now.  Also, I had a loose tooth.  It's not loose anymore.

I don't know if it was high blood sugar or just the constant presence of sugar in my mouth that was feeding it.  I used to eat a lot of plain yogurt, then would add fruit to it, thinking it was healthy.

*

I requested they add an LDH test a couple months ago for Shirley.  They ran it just that one time.  The results were normal.

*

How is it that Dayspring is allowed to use 3BP?  They say it's more effective than DCA or 2DG, so I assume those are not being used.

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Jan 19, 2019 03:35 AM

Quote | Reply

-Yes, I have noticed this as well. Oral/dental health problems are largely caused by several bacterial species (e.g., Streptococcus mutans which erodes enamel with lactic acid). Removing carbohydrates leaves them without a food supply. It is reasonable to expect that so-called primitive peoples had much better oral health than do those now living in the modern world (excluding those who adhere to a ketogenic diet).

- Combining a ketogenic diet and exercise continues to spark my interest. The article that you posted about using a super low glucose approach should be consulted.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1407.7622.pdf

D has posted the full text of the article below that shows an update of a clinically plausible way of achieving low glucose.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030698771

Taking away the glucose/carbs and then burning off the lactate could have a substantially relevant effect on cancer. The fundamental defect that has been understood for almost 100 years is that cancer metabolism is driven by highly abnormal sugar metabolism. When you take away glucose, one of the last obvious remaining glucose equivalents is lactate. Even a normalish lactate level for a cancer patient is probably too high. Lactate causes a large number of harmful effects within the context of cancer. Investigating this further and assessing its safety makes a great deal of sense.

First you would simply want to determine whether this basic strategy of lactate lowering is even possible. Obviously it would be wise to gradually develop a competency in this manipulation. It would be quite a thrill to see that you had the power to essentially remove the cancer's defence shield. Further, lactate is shuttled to other cancer cells which depend upon it for their metabolism; suppresses the immune response ... .

You would want to see what the response relationship were between lactate decline and glucose levels. What might happen to lactate levels at a glucose level of 50? The articles above note that in a ketoadapted state which they refer to as stage 5 starvation (that can occur after 2 or more weeks, of the recommended diet, see article for details), people were able to move below the typical coma induction glucose level in the 40-50 mg/dL level. How would the lactate respond as glucose was lowered? Might lactate simply not even budge as glucose were lowered to some reasonable, though achievable level? This could be determined empirically. 

Lowering glucose by exercise is consistent with the first law of thermodynamics. From the top down perspective what is occurring during aerobic exercise is that in normal cells and the cancer cells glycolysis/OXPHOS is burning off the glucose and producing CO2 and ATP (energy). As exercise continued through time the glucose would be burned down lower and lower. An hour of moderate intensity exercise can greatly reduce glucose levels. With gluconeogenesis, lactate would become a glucose supplier. The body should have sensors to detect a pattern of glucose lowering and make sure lactate enters glucose making mode. Without such a response, the body would enter energy collapse even if lactate were plentiful. This would be nonsensical. Not having such a backup would not have been maintained through evolutionary time. The problem that anaerobic athletes face is that they approach the body's limits of lactate tolerance; aerobic athletes run out of glucose.

Given the above line of reasoning it should be no great surprise that Dayspring includes exercise with oxygen therapy as one of their treatments. You would want to do this in a professional context in which the major biological markers were under continuous observation (e.g. heart rate, glucose, lactate, ketones etc.). I realize that there are functional limitations present, though it is not unreasonable to expect that even under such a circumstance an aerobic effect could be achieved while seated. 

Given that both exercise and ketosis have been extensively researched in cancer, the above should not be regarded as a suggestion without a rationale foundation. This could be a starting point to research this idea further.

Best Wishes, Jcancom

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JohnnyP on Sun Jan 20, 2019 02:15 AM

Quote | Reply

J:

Good news/bad news.  The results of Shirley's latest blood test are in.  Her white blood cell count is solidly back in the normal range, as are all other readings, with the exception of the cancer antigen marker CA15-3.  Bummer.  It's now 52.1.  Last month it was 38, the month before 32.

We switched health plans and have to use a different testing service, so the readings may not be totally compatible.  The previous lab said high normal for this marker is 35.  The new lab says high normal is 25.

RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JohnnyP on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:24 AM

Quote | Reply

I found this while searching for Metformin cancer videos a couple days ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73xCwdB6m2k

It's from CBS2 News, published on youtube last month.

Original story titled "ONLY ON 2: Diabetes Drug That Kills Cancer?"

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/video/3987524-only-on-2-diab

Dr. Robert Nagourney in Long Beach, CA

https://www.nagourneycancerinstitute.com/

5080 Posts | Page(s): Prev 12...495 496 497 498 499 ...507508 Next 
Subscribe to this message board discussion

We care about your feedback. Let us know how we can improve your CancerCompass experience.